Gideon Igra: Men’s mental health in times of war
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The comprehensiveness of the program prepared me so well for medical school. Explore over 350 plus programs at asonline.asu.edu. [Music] This is JPO sits down with and in this episode we sit down with Gdonigra, an expert educator and facilitator who is currently facilitating a father is born project part of the women’s international Zionist organization’s commitment to men’s mental health. If you are someone you love is struggling with their mental health, please see resources in the description of this episode. Hi, I’m Yuvel Bara, producer at JPost Studios, and I’m here with Gideon Eigra, a therapist and group session leader at the Women International Zionist Organizations, a father is born program, a program which aims to help reintegrate new fathers um back into society, back into their families, and help them end their military service in a positive and constructive way. Giddy, thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. How would you describe in your own words the program uh a father is born? Uh so father is born is a program for um for men in a reserve duty and this uh continuous war uh who became father during the war. Mhm. Um so it’s like a this double challenge of a transition from uh from military life from combat zone into family life. Mhm. and combined with the challenge of expanding with the family, whether it’s their first born or a second child. And is that something we’re seeing a lot of in this war that there are a lot of new fathers who are having children while they’re in reserve duty? There’s there’s a a big demand for the program. Maybe tell us a little bit about how the program came about. What what how how long has it been around and I’m I’m sure I can guess what led to it, but how how long has it been around and how how did it come? So, we’re now like yesterday I’ve met with the group that I’m uh facilitating. Um and this is the first group. Mhm. Uh so it’s been around for like two or three months. Uh how it came about. So um Vitzo uh the program is is led by Vitzo. Could you tell just in case people don’t know what that is? Yeah, VITO it’s like a very uh big organization uh for Zionist women uh issues. I don’t know how to say it but um regarding to to this program vit is a is helping women for many years especially in terms of family life, motherhood um equal rights and uh empowering women. Mhm. Um and so in the war they they started by supporting the the women who were left behind in the in the home with the kids uh under a lot of pressure. Um and they came about okay we we need to help the men as well when they come back. Um, I can say in general that it’s like a uh we can see in during the war um like a regression in in gender role. Uh the men are out fighting and the women are stuck looking after the kids. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve uh I’ve seen that. I know a few people who that’s that’s basically been the situation. And uh not not for not they’re they’re very uh progressive feminist women who I can see this isn’t exactly how they imagined their married life going that the husband is out all day for months at a time and for for many men as well not how they imagined their fatherhood. It’s not how they’re imagined their relationship with the kids and I think it’s a very interesting and complex time. I mean because also like I think you know other other uh qualities of uh masculinity that uh many many years we’re uh we’re facing the um how do you say like toxic sides of it toxic masculinity. Yeah. So this is a bit about bringing some element of positive masculinity. And also I want to like doing some positive like PR for for masculinity because we’re all now in um facing war and we need those mens who are out there looking after after us but we also need the men back home raising back home and and the program is about helping them reintegrate back into the families back into uh their values back into the men they they wanted to be. Has that impact beencome increasingly clear that that these men are being kept away from their families for such a long time that it it is actually hard for them to come of course come back and would you say that’s I don’t know how how much you might know but is it worse than in previous wars would you say this is or is it more due to the length I think okay so of course the length it’s not only the length it’s the um the cycles you know this worth of cycles because and I heard this from from many men’s uh from many reserve uh soldiers um the the the impact of this um circles it’s not that you finish I mean they they they finish and they go back home the shadow of the next coming circle is already you know looming the present because they can’t really just let go they need to they they in a way they they are um preparing for the next circle so the length is a big part of it and also I think it’s very different from a previous word war in the manner of um you know we had like a very big differences all around the western world and in Israel as well concerning the role of men in the house the role of women women and all of the sudden the women are called back into the house and the men are calling out um but the demands didn’t really change women is still expected to go out and work and the men uh still I mean they’re um you know providing for a u physical security but the the more emotional and relationship security is still part of the expectation from the self and from the surrounding this I just thought of this now but is is there any element that some of them are maybe a little bit embarrassed or upset that they aren’t the ones earning the money for their family anymore that they’re stuck basically in an unpaid volunteer position for a long time and they aren’t actually earning is there do they talk about that at all? I can say that one of the challenges is like reintegrating back into civilian life. So we talked a bit about the family uh space and we’ll go back to it later but uh it’s very hard to to uh like merge back into the uh work as well and some of the employers are not aware enough for the challenges they are facing. Um the guys talk about like a cognitive uh um dysfunctioning. uh they came back from a really different environment um and they had to function uh both physically, emotionally and cognitively in a whole different manner. Um and and so it’s hard to to go back in into work. Um as for your question about like more moneywise um I mean I I met with couple of of father that actually were uh kicked off their jobs because they were absent for so long and whether it’s uh like um I think legally they have problem with it but that but they but they find a way like to go past it and let let them go. of course that uh going back to the military and and combat zone is hard. Mhm. But I think it’s also important to to face like the re rewarding parts of it. They find a lot of meaning, a sense of belonging. Mhm. Uh they’re not alone. Um they part of a very big mission, national mission where everything is very rigid and and you know and uh uncertain. Do do many of them feel conflicted about this that they they both see why they need to go back but also have difficulty going back? Of course, but just the point I was trying to make is is back back home things are not as clear as as as a as a as in the military you and of course as a new father even more like what is my role here and and if he was absent for many months and you know so the the old system just uh life goes on. So it’s the void was filled with different parts of the family or more role that the mother took for herself and so we really need to create his own uh role again especially if it’s a young child that uh he hasn’t been there so much. He haven’t been there so much and it’s always a challenge. It’s always like of course it’s a happy thing. Yeah. But but it’s also a a crisis in in the life of of a man. Is is there one is there any specific story or or um sort of event that a lot of Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight the other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumba casino.com. I looked over at the person sitting next to me and you know what they were doing? They were also playing Chumba Casino. Everybody’s loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino is home to hundreds of casino style games that you can play for free anytime, anywhere. So sign up now at chambaccasino.com to claim your free welcome bonus. That’s chumbaccasino.com and live the Chumba life. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW group void where prohibited by law 21 plus. Terms and conditions apply. With Robin Hood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robin Hood. Trading crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with the Robin Hood crypto LLC. Robin Hood crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robin Hood crypto is not FDIC insured or SIPC protected. Investing involves risk including loss of principle. Securities trading is offered through an account with Robin Hood Financial LLC member SIPC a registered broker dealer of them talk about that a lot of them experience sort of a very common sort of feeling that they I don’t know maybe missing a child’s first walk or words or something like this that a lot of them seem to be impact you can say that a lot of they carry a lot of guilt of course they miss like important milestones in the child’s life I heard like um the circumcision ision. Oh, Britmin. Yeah. The one who who misses his his son circumcision. Uh like first steps, first words. Um of course, but but more more importantly, I think it’s um it’s always hard for a man to to connect with the child. I mean, the woman carries inside the her her own body. she she already have a relation relationship with with the baby for 9 months. Um and now it’s even harder. And and another point I I want to make it that um uh while uh being in the military being detached from emotion is like a really important h function for your survival for your uh for for making things right. when you come into the relationship zone, it’s the exact o exact opposite. You in order to reconnect with somebody, you have to be connected to to yourself. Um so they and they don’t want to just, you know, be um uh function only uh like a robot. Yeah. like a robot just doing the the the going through the motions and the Yeah, they want to they want to feel um and it’s not always easy because they were for many months they made a lot of mental effort to not feel to be disconnected to avoid all sort of helplessness and and and and fear. um and when they they want to connect so many times they meet with all of these things that they didn’t want to meet for a long time and it’s um it’s a complex uh situation. Has there been previous efforts maybe by the IDF or by nonprofits to to do this kind of work before? Yeah, let’s start with that. Um I think in comparison to previous war uh like part of my reserve in this war was to do this uh circles of um how do you say Ibud processing? Yeah. Yeah. Uh which is became like a huge part of this war that that So in the past it wasn’t a huge like Yeah. In the past it wasn’t it wasn’t a part um I think only like elite units got this uh attention for their mental health and now it’s it’s spreaded much wider. Do you think there’s part of this is to do with the the general discussion that I I would say people in the west but it seems like everyone over the world is having this about men’s mental health as a do you think this has been part of why it’s uh increased? I’m sure it is and um I of course I view it as a very positive step. I think it’s uh and this program is part of it. It’s it’s part of our responsibility as society to take care not only on the um physical health uh but also for for the mental uh health of of the warriors and uh and and again not only the warriors I met with people that were um you know like backstage work. Mhm. They suffer from post-traumatic um symptoms because many time for for many hours they they had a lot of responsibility. Um I I I have one friend who has it just from the sound of drones. Yeah. And nothing else. Um Yeah. Wow. And again, you know, it’s it’s um so we have like a lot of u um more awareness for for this whole uh uh issue of of of uh emotional impact of of uh taking part of of a war. Um yeah, and and something that that we need to work with. Um do do you think there’s been a wider discussion about this in Israeli society? because I know Israelis are actually quite good about talking about their emotions, I think, but uh not always in the most uh um constructive way. Has has that do you see it having an impact on wider Israeli society that a lot of these soldiers are now going through um psychological treatment or or you going through this process of of processing what’s gone through? Do you think that’s having a wider impact on on Israelis? Yes, I I think it’s part of a whole process concerning masculinity like if we’ll go back in a more traditional um manners of masculinity. So it’s like a you know lonesome rider or a lonesome wolf who have to uh always managers in on his own never ask for helps. is always I just watch watched the Billbar stand up like you men are allowed to be uh okay or angry like there the two options and of course underneath they carry the whole spectrum of of emotions. it’s a it’s a part of a a a wider change. Um and in Israel, especially in the last couple of years, we have a very a big change concerning the PTSD on a military background. I think like um I don’t know a lot of people for me I really like Udikagan the uh the comedian who talks about it. uh so it becomes much more um legitimate to to speak up but still of course there’s a lot of shame and and loneliness surrounding the I mean I don’t want to make it like a uh brighter than than it is so there’s an improvement but but still a lot of men um stay alone never ask for help think that something is wrong with them um and uh this is a huge part of of our um our uh choosing of a of a a group setting. Mhm. Because it’s much easier for a man to take part of a group than to go on a oneonone one and not one onone session. Mhm. Is there a difference between sort of more religious soldiers and less religious soldiers in this? It’s an interesting question. I must say that uh from my experience now but I do know that like from uh literature and and theory like a huge part of resilience um is um values and and belief. Mhm. Um but belief and values are not only religious. I mean people can be secular but but the sense that the um reality they’re facing is a part of their own choice something that they are loyal to that’s that of course it’s hard they have difficulties they pay prices but um you know they own it they feel that this is this is something that um this is who I want to be this is part of my set of values h it’s say um a big part of being resilient. So you started describing a little bit why why don’t you walk us through what happens in a typical session how um how it starts what’s the topics of discussion um and if you’ve got anything interesting that you can tell us from any of them without uh revealing anyone’s uh personal information. Um so um we do have a like subject for for each uh um group session. Mhm. But of course, always try to be as flexible as possible um with what is uh being uh currently alive within the within the man. Um we usually start with some kind of grounding, physical grounding. Um we practice along along the sessions all sort of uh emotional regulation exercise. It’s always um with with something physical. Mhm. Um and we talked about uh we talk about different issues like um anger management uh how to communicate oneself uh oneself emotions and and needs. First of all, it’s hard enough to communicate it to yourself and later on to somebody else. But but a lot of the again, it’s uh it’s not uncommon uh during I don’t know to say peace days, but it’s never been peace days. But but before October 7th, it’s always been pass hard. But now when it’s even harder for um for men to uh you know to to own their own uh emotions. Mhm. Um so so during the sessions um we speak first of all about this like what what do I need um what how to have fun anytime anywhere. Step one go to chumbaccasino.com chumbaacasino.com got it. Step two collect your welcome bonus. Come to papa welcome bonus. Step three play hundreds of casino style games for free. That’s a lot of games all for free. Step four unleash your excitement. Woohoo. Chumba Casino has been delivering thrills for over a decade. So claim your free welcome bonus now and live the Chumba life. Visit chumbocasinoasino.com. No purchase necessary. VGW group void were prohibited by law. 21 plus terms and conditions apply. Do I feel and sometimes um men want to avoid the the answers because they are not masculine. Mhm. Because I feel helpless and feeling I think this is like one of the most uh forbidding feeling for a man to feel helpless. Mhm. Uh and of course it’s uh inevitable uh during life. You don’t know always what to do. And I and and the way I uh like um market this thing to them is is that and it’s true. Um it’s an act of taking responsibility. If you’re a father, if you want to be a man in this world, you have to take responsibility for your action, for your feelings. Um, and you can’t do it if you’re in denial. And, and is that something you found is quite effective at countering this toxic masculinity, asking people to take responsibility for their emotions? Yes. And and and also the group is very effective because um it’s and it happens very quickly. Mhm. You know, it’s always uh I’ve been facilitating men groups for many years now. Mh. Um and I I got the reaction many times from women like so you just sit there for three hours and and in silent and and the fact is that men know how to talk their emotions. They uh find a lot of value in in in in speaking their emotion and they give incredible support for each other but they just need the the right conditions which is not that often are are given to them. It feels like what I’m hearing is um that a lot of these men sort of they want to discuss their emotions. They want to discuss it in a in a non-toxic responsible way, but they sort of lack the space to do it. There’s not sort of a you know it’s it’s sometimes quite hard to talk to your own friends about it and it can be also much harder to talk to your own family about such things. So are you saying that there’s sort of there not maybe there’s a need for a space where men groups of men can come together to discuss things like this? Yeah, exactly. And and in this space um you know it’s a non judgmental space um and every time somebody speaks up you know the the level of trust is is rising up the the level of shame is is a like a lowering you know they are I I I mentioned earlier the the sense of belonging being part of something I think part of what we’re trying to do is take they they are coming in in this way we have like a big um advantage. They already have this positive experience of being part of a manhood of of like their brother in arms. Mhm. So we want to shift this uh uh a sense of belonging of trust and shift it into civilian life where you can trust your brother not only to protect to have your back like physically but also to support you with your uh daily dilemmas as a father as a partner. Do do you think this is something that could that the army should be implementing something like this like on a wider scale of having these kind of post army groups in a sense? I don’t know if if the army but but I but I but but but um definitely the like the country as a whole. Okay. So I I I don’t know like the exact but but um but of course this is a part of of uh the responsibility you’re sending your men out there and not not only men and I want to you know yeah of course there’s also women there are also women in in reserve duty who who are also facing uh um very hard challenges and having difficulties integrating back home and of course it’s a minority but this minority is is the society is very blind to them. I mean because it’s a minority people are not aware enough women face challenging challenges coming back from reserve duty as well. Um, back to your question. Yes, of course. It’s a it’s a it’s a it’s our responsibility as a country, as a society. Um, you know, to help them uh go back home and and uh uh and it’s part of our resilient as a society. Um, you know, we know it when when we neglect it. Yeah. So like people we have you have violent issues like domestic violence, you have um suicides and Yeah. Um that’s Yeah, for sure. I I remember the first uh the week after I make aliyah there was um the soldier who ended up that’s it. Um that that happened a week after I I moved. Um and that for me really gave me the big impact of Yeah. there there has to be some sort of um process at the end of the army because clearly a lot of for a lot of people it’s uh it that they don’t leave the army in such a great state and again I think I don’t want to make the the the picture too bright but there’s a very we progressed a lot we did a long way as as a society there’s many soldier are going through you know even if it’s just something I’ve I’ve definitely noticed that as some of my um reserveist friends who I would not have said would have been the most um emotionally open people have definitely become more willing to discuss things and I think partially because they see that so many other people are also experiencing similar things so they feel slightly less alone um but also this what you’re describing this sort of societal change that we’re having towards this uh type of discussion and the fact that the army you know as for me it was extremely um meaningful that part of my reserve duty I I facilitated such groups because it’s for for me personally I was a combat soldier back in the days and and for many years as a reserve um for it was like okay you know like a stamp of quality stamp that this is important this is part this is not something like um how do you say uh nice to have this is this is a part part of of our security. This is this is a must. It’s Yeah, this is a must. And and um when the army does that, you give a very profound message to to the soldier that yeah, don’t be this is this is part of of your uh responsibility. This is part of our responsibility to take care of your mental health as well. How much influence have you had from foreign programs? Have are there programs say in the United States or maybe even Ukraine where there’s uh similar things going on that you’ve drawn influence from or have you influenced any of these program? So personally I I I’m not I don’t know. Mhm. Um the uh program fathers born is uh with the help of Dr. Abar who’s an Israeli um and for many years he studied um um like men who uh domestic violence. Mhm. Erh, I’m not sure with the uh like no I’m just the but no but but it’s a really interesting question because it’s something like worldwide worldwide phenomena that we’re all uh um experiencing. Um, one thing you’ve been talking a lot about is this toxic masculinity and we also hear a lot of times that goes hand inhand with a male loneliness epidemic that you hear a lot about in the west. How how is that sort of impacting the soldiers? Is there an element of them um when they’re coming back falling into bad pattern patterns of of um isolating themselves and and refusing to to see friends and family, this sort of thing. Yeah. So, um I want to say something about toxic masculinity later, but um yeah, part of uh like the more traditional aspect of of masculinity um is um you know uh just uh men up and and uh suck it up, let’s say, which uh which translate into uh self-medication, which is a nice word to say. um using drugs and alcohol in a very destructive manner or I would even say suicidal manner. Um I met with with this aspect as well. Uh men who are uh um you know seeking into into a uh addiction. Yeah. Yeah. and and feeling alone and um and it’s not uncommon for a reservist who’s coming back home to feel alone because indeed he had this very uh um this tight-knit brotherhood with his tightness and and and then back home people you know life goes on here for I think like for November December 2023 we all been in in this situation but the the fact of the matter is that that life life goes on and um and uh and and uh they f find themselves you know that nobody can understand them except for their friends who’s who who’ve been there with them to experience the exact experiences and um and many times they just give up. Okay, I don’t have any chance for nobody to understand me. So it doesn’t even uh there’s no point in trying. Um uh and this is part of of uh of the power of the group because you know they know that everybody in the group have been through through several circles of of reserve duty. So they share the experience so it’s a great starting point. Uh, and the thing I wanted to say about the toxic, of course, I understand the question and it’s okay, but this is personally a term that that um um I hate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we we never say toxic any other uh any any other generalization toxic. I don’t know. uh h there’s different qualities in in in manhood and um they have like you know their their ups and downs and and especially now when we’re speaking during a war and where uh masculinity is a part of it a huge part of it uh maybe a part of the causes but also part of the the uh defending now and you know we’re speaking now on uh July, we still have hostages in Gaza. Men because men life are at at the bottom. You know, it’s like from the Titanic, men, women and children first. Men and life are are of less value. And I think it’s time for us uh to to to treasure manhood and masculinity. Of course, the thing that we want to change and and improve as a society, but the term toxicity always like shrinks me. I I have to say I read something recently about um that they’re if I remember correctly the British education system is trying to get stop teachers using this word saying toxic masculinity because some research is suggesting that well the first time any of any of the boys in school hear about masculinity it’s as toxic masculinity. Yeah. And so they end up growing up with a very sort of I don’t know if what the right word is, but they grow up with an unhealthy relationship to masculinity, feeling like they shouldn’t be masculine, but at the same time still wanting to be. Yeah. So help me navigate the conversation here. But like I’ve been working with Vitza for for many years and and for many years we did like work I I did uh workshops in in schools in high schools working with young boys about these these exact issues and you you can’t be um you know you’re very right. Uh many uh boys like grow up and and they feel they um afraid from of of their own sexuality or uh or aggression and and then it’s not that’s not a healthy relationships uh with this identity. And let’s uh let’s talk a little bit about um how that’s impacting their their relationships with their wives, girlfriends. Um and then in some cases boyfriends. Um what’s is is there you mean the uh coming back from Yeah, coming back from reserve duty. Um do do you see a lot of I don’t know what the right word is. Do do you see them having trouble returning to this partnership, I guess, between two people? Do do they have trouble with this? Yeah, I can there’s like a conflict of loyalty loyalties. Mhm. No. uh they want to be loyal to their friends and and uh for the friends, for the country, of course, but when you go when you go um into reserve duty, you’re there for the people. Yeah. You’re there for the people and for the mission on the one end and on the other end, you want to be loyal for your girlfriend, wife, partner, whatever. uh and so they’re they experience this conflict uh and sometime the the the other side uh is very angry about their choice. Uh especially with the continu continuing war because it’s again and again and again. Um there’s a huge gap you know uh they experienced being at the military meanwhile life goes on here there’s a huge gap uh a lot of guilt um a lot of will for uh you know for um compensating for the lost time but uh many times not even in a very efficient manner. um they’re just doing whatever is the first thing that comes to mind or what what do you mean by not a very efficient manner? First of all, I always stress out this point for for uh for the men in my group. Uh guilt is a very bad um like um how do you say um it’s a very bad fuel for change. Mhm. It’s a it’s not it’s not really help helping. Responsibility is a whole different thing. We want to move from guilt to responsibility. Um and uh by by not efficient I mean they for example they can be like uh suffering from a chronic fatigue and because they want to compensate and and and they keep on going like on a high speed but they’re not really there. They’re not really present in their relationship. They function in they can do a lot of things but they’re not really present because they are still disconnected from from from themsel and in order to reconnect and to reintegrate they have to uh look after themsel as well and uh um and part of this is going to these uh sessions and discussing it. Thank you. Yeah. Um, and another part of it is to uh to stand for like to confront your uh partner that I know I’ve been absent for such a long time but still I need time for myself as well. It’s not that they’ve been on vacation. Um, and you know the other side had his own story. It’s very hard to stay such a long time alone with the kids with the taking care of the house. Um so they have to I don’t offer them solutions. I do offer them the uh um um communicating their needs and and how to communicate them and uh to take responsibility. So so basically part of this is to help give them the tools they need to when say properly reintegrate healthfully reintegrate with their family and and the wider civilian society basically. And a huge part of it is just to to be patient to understand that this is a transition, a very hard transition. It’s going to take time. Do not expect from yourself. And and also I say this for the surrounding for the families, employees, wives. Don’t expect it to be like uh no. Yeah. Instant like as if nothing ever happened. It’s it’s a it’s a hard condition. And maybe it will never be the same. And you have to be patient and you have to be compassionate and uh like bring a lot of of soft softness into this uh uh transition. Well, thank you Giddy for coming. This has been really interesting um and very eye opening to be honest. I some of this stuff was stuff that I had seen just from my friends but hearing hearing the impact as it’s coming from someone who’s uh as part of the professional help. Um it’s been very eye opening. Thank you for having me. This episode was hosted by Uval Bara and edited and produced by Uval Marnea and Shifer Jacobs. For more information about JPO’s podcast, check the description of this episode. Hey, it’s Ryan Serest. Life comes at you fast, which is why it’s important to find some time to relax a little u time. Enter Chumba Casino. With no download required, you can jump on anytime, anywhere for the chance to redeem some serious prizes. So, treat yourself with Chumba Casino and play over a 100 online casino style games, all for free. Go to chumbaccasino.com to collect your free welcome bonus. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. 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In this episode of JPost sits down with…, we sit down with Gideon Igra, a leading figure in WIZO (Women’s International Zionist Organization) who is spearheading efforts to address men’s mental health in Israeli society. While WIZO has long been known for its work empowering women and children, Gideon’s work highlights an often-overlooked issue: the emotional and psychological well-being of men. Gideon shares his personal motivations for championing men’s mental health, the stigma that still surrounds the topic, and how WIZO is expanding its programs to support men who are returning to their families after military service. His work bridges the gap between traditional support services and the growing need for inclusive mental health advocacy. Join Yuval Barnea for a powerful and timely conversation about vulnerability, resilience, and why taking care of men’s mental health is essential to building a stronger, more compassionate society.
Learn more about WIZO here. (https://www.wizo.org/news/a-father-is-born-wizo-launches-groundbreaking-program-for-new-fathers-in-crisis/)
Hosted by Yuval Barnea.
Edited and produced by Yuval Barnea and Shifra Jacobs.
Learn more about our podcasts here. (https://pod.link/1824974904/episode/2626861561ad0591592c2e69f5454630)