Beyond the Counter: From Stigma to Support – Talking About Mental Health
I’m Jim Jack. You’re watching Now Media. We’re here with Beyond the Counter with Stephen Hop. I’m sitting in for the uh ever uh excellent Alexa Anderson. She’s just has a actually, you know, like she’s not feeling great today. And we’re going to actually talk about some of that stuff. It’s not a mental health issue. She’s having she just has a really bad migraine. But mental health is kind of like something that’s affecting so many British Columbombians, so many Canadians in in general right now. So, how big of a topic is it when you’re when you’re talking to people coming in? It’s a huge topic and and something that’s not talked about enough and that’s why, you know, I’m I’m grateful to have this opportunity to to sit here and talk to you about it and hopefully bring some awareness to the issue. Um, you know, we talk about mental health, we talk about mental illness, and me mental health is really a state of well-being. Um, you know, when we’re mentally healthy, we we feel good about ourselves, we feel good about our lives, we feel healthy in general. Um, whereas mental illness is a problem that, you know, it affects the way we think about ourselves. It affects the way we think about our lives and relate to others and the way we interact. And mental illnesses disrupt our lives and our ability to um to function. and they create challenges um that that people encounter with their everyday lives. Unfortunately, a lot of people go through peaks and valleys, but we’re we’re more talking about the people that kind of stay in that valley for a longer per an extended period of time and that it turns into something more than just like a bad day, right? It turns into something where it kind of like spirals and then and it turns into something that sometimes it requires treatment as well too. Absolutely. And so when you have good mental health, you deal with those difficult times that you talked about. You know, everybody if you’ve lost a job or you’ve lost a loved one or or just had a you know, a hard day. Yeah. Exactly. It’s normal to feel sad or feel angry with these certain things. Um but you know, we’re able to bounce back. Whereas when you have mental illness, you you don’t necessarily get through those those times as well. um you know as you kind of mentioned. Yeah. So like when somebody comes in and you kind of you’re talking to them obviously like a lot of times when people are coming in you’ve done a lot of shows here already too and talking about describing and stuff like that. You know you’re talking about their prescription you’re giving the information can you kind of sense when they’re possibly where they need need more support in that way and then you guide them. Yeah for sure. Um and we see it so much right um statistically now mental health is one of the or mental illness is one of the things that is the least commonly treated but the most commonly occurring in people and as a pharmacist you really get to know your clients. You know we see a lot of our clients that come into the pharmacy a lot sometimes weekly or or multiple times a week. Uh and and it’s it’s so great to have such a great relationship with people that come into the pharmacy. And so when you get to know them and get to know their families and their struggles, you definitely can recognize when people are going through, you know, mental illnesses, whether it be depression or anxiety uh or or many other mental illnesses that people struggle with. And you said that like a lot of people like because the stigma there, a lot of people try to hide it, right? They try to mask it. They try to keep it from their spouse. They try to keep it from their partner. They try to keep it from their kids and from their work and stuff and and sometimes they just kind of like it even actually gets worse, right? Because they just kind of like press it down inside. Some people are able to deal some people use it they press it deep down inside and they use it as motivation. But a lot of people it actually turns into a bit of a failure for them, right? That’s how people feel and it shouldn’t be that way. You know, it is it is an illness just like diabetes is an illness and if if you were diabetic, you’d probably talk to your friends, they’d know that you had diabetes. uh you most people would be completely open talking about that but with mental illness somehow you people there’s a stigma there where people feel like less of a person. Yeah. Exactly. And um I mean the thing about that stigma is it almost results in you know a discrimination attached with um with mental illness. It becomes a barrier really um not only to diagnosis but to treatment. And because of that stigma, people don’t get treatment. Statistically, and and there’s some really good studies out there, resources out there, but statistically close to 50% of people who suffer from anxiety, chronic anxiety and depression, don’t ever see a doctor or a counselor. Mhm. Why is that? It’s because of the stigma that you that you mentioned. Yeah. No, I think it a lot of it is like self discrimination or self shame. Absolutely. And then and especially like you know when when you’re with a partner or something you don’t want to be you know like you’re maybe you’ve been looked on in the past as the strong one and all of a sudden you feel weak but so you just it’s a tough time showing it. So so what’s your recommendation to people when you know they’re exhibiting signs of mental illness? Support network is so important with anything in life right? Support network is important. people people are more successful getting through um you know addiction problems um other health related problems whether it could be cardiovascular or anything they people are more successful if they have a support network. So you know some pe for some people there’s reasons why you having a support network is a real challenge but in general you want to seek out the people who you trust seek out the people who you’re comfortable talking to and using them as a support network but a big thing I think we all have the responsibility too as healthc care providers workplaces we have a responsibility to bring mental mental illness out there and to destigmatize it um you know the belief that mental health struggles are a weakness they’re not a weakness, they’re just a medical illness. Um the fear of being labeled um which I mean that’s another topic. Women are much more um often labeled by the health care system as emotional or unstable. You know, we have to we have to be better for people when it comes to that sort of thing. Um there’s cultural expectations and certainly workplace discrimination with things like anxiety and depression. um in the last year. Um I the statistics just show an incredible amount of of missed days in the workplace due to to mental illness. Um and people deal with stress and this is the thing people deal with stress a lot different ways but then sometimes people will pick on what they think is is is is the whole issue. Like I can tell you share a story with someone shared with me is a young man would uh he had such severe anxiety that some days he would phone in and say he can’t come to work cuz he was scared he wouldn’t find a parking space. So that was caused but that’s that’s not the real anxiety. You know what I mean? It’s just that’s the the straw that kind of broke the camel’s back and it’s just kind of like you know that this he’s suffering and like almost anxiety all the time. So little things are causing him to kind of like spiral. Absolutely. Um and so we need to support those people. We have to recognize that people who struggle with those feelings need to be supported and and ultimately you have a as a employer, as someone who’s a supervisor in a workplace, you have an opportunity to support people who struggle with those things and and I mean they still have a job to do of course and and we have to recognize that. But if we can support them through these struggles and talk to them, make make the environment open. So make it a a safe environment and create a safe place, then people will be much more open to talking about it. And that’s really one of the most important things with mental illness is destigmatizing it, making it uh safe for people to talk about it. So when you’re you’re you’re dealing with these patients, you kind of know I mean you know who’s on a on a benefits plan obviously you’re seeing because of their you know their their co-ay or their thing or whatever. And then a lot of benefit plans obviously have like you know a psychological component to them where they can actually call us. Is that where you kind of like steer them first kind of or if they’re needing help you would steer them? Yeah. I as a pharmacist. Yeah. I’m not I I feel that I understand mental illness and where people are coming from pretty well, but I’m not an expert certainly as much as people who are trained in that. So, um some of those when people have private insurance, often there’s a support component associated with that. You know, if it’s something that we can’t help with, we’ll try to direct them to resources. the um Canadian Mental Health Association and Colona has a really great uh chapter of the Canadian Mental Health Association that has lots of resources for youth and young adults. The foundry is amazing. Now, all these places there can be a way to get in, but we try to direct them to the experts and and I mean, at least in my pharmacy, we tend to have a lot of time for people. So, we’ll at least listen to people and make sure people understand that we’re here to listen and and support them in that way because sometimes people just need an ear and need someone to take the time to listen to them too. And obviously to family doctors and then obviously there’s prescriptions and then that’s kind of where you would explain exactly what the medications are doing to what side effects and what other That’s our job. But and we do that and we evaluate the all their medications. But it’s not only about medications too. Often often medications help and and I mean mental health is something that people definitely can improve it. They can mental illness can be managed to the point where even if they’re struggling with day-to-day things. The majority of people can recover to a point where they can live a life where they’re feeling good and able to go about go about their their day-to-day things that they want to do. Um, but medication isn’t necessarily always the answer either. And so, you know, I will try to direct people to what they need, whether it be um counseling or psychiatry or whatever resources they really need out there. Yeah. Alexa told me that you you’ve actually even done a show on describing, which is unusual for a pharmacy, right? Yeah. Deprescribing we call it, which is about um getting people off of or their medications or decreasing their overall medication load. You know, I look at my business as being in the health care business and trying being in the business of people. So, trying to help people to feel better about everything. And that’s not necessarily pushing prescriptions on them, that’s not what we want because that’s not right. And it doesn’t make people overall healthy and feel better about themselves. And and if I can make everybody feel better about themselves, even if they’re getting fewer prescriptions, people are hopefully going to like us and and be loyal customers. And that in the long run is good for us and it’s good for them and good for the community. I say one thing always is eat food like it’s medicine or medicine will be your food. I’m sure you’ve heard that a million. Absolutely. Many verses and it’s um it is so true like in how you look after yourself and and uh you know like and then that support network you build through life, right? And then having you know pharmacist that actually is willing to take the time and chat with you. I think that is even more important, right? Especially when you’re talking about medications that may have absolutely a number of side effects as well, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as an employer too, and it’s something that I would almost say is worth challenging other employers out there, when you invest in your people, when you put people first. So, when you invest in the health and well-being of your employees, um you’re going to increase their productivity and and the strength of mental health of all. And um I was looking for it. I had some notes on statistics. I was looking earlier in our conversation, but each day in Canada or 500,000 uh people miss work daily due to mental illness. 500,000 people. That’s a lot. And and I mean, I don’t want to just start throwing out statistics in this interview, but they say that by the time people are 40, one in one in two 50% of Canadians by the time they are 40 um experience depression or anxiety. I remember they used to run commercials a long time ago. Oh yeah. That said three in five British Columbians will have uh mental illness in the next couple years or something like that. I can’t remember the exact stats on it, but like it is it is something that is very uh prevalent and and like you said, a lot of people go through peaks and valleys. It’s on on an ongoing basis, but sometimes people get stuck in a valley for a longer period of time. They actually, you know, make it worse instead of asking for help out of the valley. And um well it’s hard to ask for help as you mentioned before and and cases like this have been getting worse. I mean the government has done some surveys and since 2012 between 2012 to 2020 we’re seeing much more of it and then co happened and co was horrible for mental health and many people are still stuck in a you know like a small space. People are still struggling to get back from from that and now economic stress that we’re starting to feel. Canadians have lots of anxiety with econ I mean that’s the typical thing that families go through. Do we have enough money to pay the bills right which causes friction which causes mental health issues which causes you know it’s kind of a spiraling kind of thing. Oh, absolutely. Um, and and if if it’s okay, I I’d love to talk a little bit about uh women’s mental health, too. And I I touched on it a little bit before, but you know, women women are expected to be caretakers and nurturers by society. There’s those those um stereotypes. Um you know, they’re expected to be sort of the pillars of strength for the family quite often. And because of this, I think women often feel more pressures um you know to support people through struggle struggles but not getting the support. They don’t prioritize themselves. They don’t they prioritize the children first and then their spouse and then they typically are you know last place. Right. Well, and it’s really common and and I’ve, you know, I I’ve experienced this through um women in my family where someone might have something going on in their life where they have legitimate pain. And as a woman, when you go to seek medical attention at the hospital or emergency, it’s really common that there’s a stigma or there’s a bias. It just assumes, oh, it’s a, you know, it’s mental illness related. Um, statistically it’s been shown that in the health care system that’s much more common for that to happen um to women. Um, so as a result women tend to have a fear of being labeled emotional or unstable um because it does happen. Um so you know we we need to normalize conversations as healthare workers uh you know we need to be more patient and and listen to people I think and that’s that’s a big part of being a pharmacist and being a healthare uh worker is you have to listen to the person first and tailor what you do for that individual. You everybody can’t be treated equally because not everyone is the same. Um and so we need to challenge harmful stereotypes. you know those stereotypes we’ve talked about that mental health is a weakness um or you’re you’re lesser of a person um know you know we change the narrative that people aren’t fragile if they have mental illness um really seeking help is a sign of strength so when you have something like this it’s a strength to seek help because lots of times um people will use coping mechanisms I’m sure too you know coping mechanisms and those coping mechanisms turn to be alcohol or or some of the you know drugs or different things and these coping mechanisms and they it dulls the the pain I guess and then and those those coping mechanisms then become they’re highly addictive and then it leads to a lot more issues right substance substance use disorders are are a form of mental health mental illness um you know that’s the way they’re classified now and they should be because that’s that’s exactly where they come from as you say it’s it’s generally dealing with some trauma. Yeah, it’s coping, right? So, at the beginning, right? You know what I mean? Or or or some drugs are typically, you know, like experimental and then it turn the addictive ones turn into a everyone deals with trauma in a different way. And that’s that’s usually where that comes from is there’s there’s trauma, there’s mental illness, and it it it does spiral and it makes it worse. And there’s an extreme stigma when it comes to addiction and and um you know drug misuse and um it’s it’s hard for people. I mean um there’s there’s shame involved usually and we have to get past that as society. We have to we have to help people not to have shame with these things. you know, we all um either go through it or know someone that goes through it at some point. And when we’re talking about alcohol and, you know, drug misuse disorders, for any of us, it could just be, you know, one thing that happens in our life. And you never know, you you could end up going down that route. So, it’s really important to have compassion for people and have patience. And again, in the pharmacy world, that’s something that I try to do and my team tries to be that way at Rutland Medical Pharmacy. Yeah, I know a lot of people that have experienced, you know, personally, my dad had a really bad issue and it, you know, kind of ruined his whole life and stuff like that. And he at the last few years of his life, he kind of like was lucky enough to get off it and kind of made amends, which was great, but lots of people don’t even get that opportunity, right? So, exactly. It is. So, so what coping mechanisms are out there when people are starting to turn to, you know, substance as opposed to like I mean it’s a network obviously is one of the big ones or turning to a healthare professional. Yeah, I think even before coping mechanisms, it’s it is really important to find the you know the right the right help. Uh because coping mechanisms are often something that that people need to learn, people need to practice and and there are experts that can really help with that. Um you know, positive thought process, but it’s it’s it’s not as easy as just saying, “Hey, think positive.” You know, that that’s that’s part of the problem. somebody that’s in the valley, that doesn’t really help them, right? No, it doesn’t. Um, you know, all you got to do is think positive, you’ll get better. They’re just like, realistically, that that that doesn’t work. And that’s I mean, it can be helpful if you have the right tools to to focus on those things. But it’s it’s about having usually the best coping mechanisms is having having support. Um, and there’s a good song there, Lean on Me, right? Yeah. No, totally. But if you’re, let’s say, you’re homeless, where do you get that? Exactly. Right. And so again, there’s so many resources out there, but they’re hard to access. So, you know, the foundry for uh young adults and youth, um organizations like the Gospel Mission. Um and then certainly the Canadian Mental Health Association has offices here in Colona. But um you know if people can find the you know the strength to do it even popping into a pharmacy if you have someone that you trust and just to have someone to talk to um can be really important to go down the right path in that in terms of developing coping mechanisms and I would say even people out there like if you’re not having a you know you see somebody raging or doing something in a Starbucks lineup or in a car maybe don’t interact to kind of add fuel to the gas they maybe having you you may drive them further into something as opposed to just you know like just saying hey they’re having a bad day you know I can let that slide. Absolutely. Well and people are you have to remember all these people are someone’s son someone’s daughter and you don’t know where they’re coming from and and we we deal with that in pharmacy sometimes as well. You know people come into the pharmacy not feeling good for for one of many great reasons. And sometimes people might be a little bit grumpy or a little angry as a result. And I’ve always told people that I work with or who worked for me that sometimes you have to be a little patient even if someone’s a little rude because you have to understand where they’re coming from. Um, and if we can help them to feel better, you know, that goes such a long way. I I had a really wise person and I think I’ve talked about this with Alexa on previous talks where I’ve talked about being good medicine. was a really really wise indigenous elder that um used that line quite often talking to us when I was on the board of the college of pharmacists and I really think we have an opportunity as people as healthcare providers and everybody in all aspects of our day to try to be good medicine to the people we come in contact with and good medicine doesn’t mean prescription medicine necessarily it just means you know in my interaction with you do I treat you well do I try to do what I can to help you to feel better and to have a better life. That’s being good medicine. Sometimes just a a thoughtprovoking question can break the pattern when they’re in this because people typically be cycled. They’ll just kind of go through this this range of emotions and if you can break the it’s an old Tony Robbins trick, right? Where you just kind of ask a question just like, “Oh, what’s your favorite coffee? You go to McDonald’s or Starbucks?” They’re just like, “What? What?” And then and maybe you break their pattern for a second and then you can start a dialogue, right? Yeah. or and even I think people if you can help them to feel and and show them that they’re not alone because you tend to feel alone and you know I’ve given talks to groups large groups before where I’ve told them those statistics about one in five uh Canadians will experience a mental health a mental illness condition in their life and if you’re standing there in a group of a thousand people and you look around and realize well here’s my group friends, one in five of them, and a bigger circle around one and five of them. That’s a lot of people. Yeah, stats are fun and they work like that though, too. And it’s the stats are and that’s how stats work, right? And uh it’s, you know, in that population, you’re definitely going to find a bunch of people that you don’t think are suffering from mental health. So, just letting people know that you’re there. They might not even have a struggle. But I think it’s really important to let people know, hey, if if any of my friends have a struggle, if they have if they need anything, please talk to me. I’m there. I have a good friend who’s a teacher. Um, and he struggled with mental illness for a long time and didn’t talk about it. And he talks about some real dark times that he went through. And now as a teacher, he actually he talks about it. He’s open about it and tells tells the kids he teaches about it. and the amount of people that he’s managed to positively touch because when they when they real these kids realize hey Mr. you know, so and so is talking about this and he went through these and I feel this way. That makes the world of difference to them. Absolutely. And I mean, with kids, just another number I wrote down, suicide accounts for 24% of all deaths among 15 to 24 year olds. Yeah. A lot of people need to know that as deep and dark as that valley they’re walking through, that a lot of people have been in the valley and have come out the other end. Right. And that’s and that’s the thing at the moment. A lot of these young people or not even just young people feel that the valley is so bad that they don’t see a path forward. Right. So yeah. And so if you can explain it to them and show them and help make people understand that I’ve been through this or someone I know or other people and and we’ll help. We’re here to help you. And that again as a pharmacy professionals, it’s not necessarily my my expertise, but I try to I’ve tried to make it as much of that as possible. And and we’re there to help people as much as possible. Um, you know, and if we can’t, we we’ll do our best to find the help for people. So So you’re not alone. And that that’s that’s really the the big thing to me. You’re not alone. um with the right support um a person can get back on the path to recovery or wellness. time heals. And uh I used to coach a lot and uh 10 years I think and you we used to have that 24-hour rule when people thought it was so important, you know, how you know they had to, you know, like vent themselves. They 24 hours, let’s talk about it tomorrow. Usually by then they’d calm down. But I think that that thing is is is relevant in when you’re feeling so bad and you that relationship ended and you think that’s the end of the world and all this stuff like if you make it through like in three years, you think why was I so upset about that? Right? You know what I mean? like it’s just it’s a it’s a time relevant thing as well, right? Well, and you may with most mental illnesses, you’re still always going to deal with it. Uh it doesn’t always it doesn’t usually ever completely go away just like addiction. Uh when you when you struggle with addiction, it’s a form of mental illness. And someone who is a recovered alcoholic is always going to be an alcoholic. So you’re always dealing with it. Uh but when when you recover, you you’ve learned healthy ways to deal with that. And same with mental illness. If you struggle with depression or anxiety, there’s probably always going to be an aspect of it there or the chance that that it could come back. But so having those supports and and you know, getting to a place of better mental health is really the goal. And and you can get there. Yeah. And it’s not always uh like alcohol and drugs. Sometimes it’s food, right? The these coping mechanisms can be a variety of things that you use, but can be a you know um just something that used to an extreme that actually causes you harm. Absolutely. Uh the mind the mind can do amazing things for us and the mind can do amazing things against us. But there’s there’s always there’s always a way certainly to improve our health, whether it be mental health or physical health. And so it’s important just for people to know that and know that you’re not alone and there there is help and there’s definitely resources out there. It’s a great series you’re doing here. So the Rutland Medical Pharmacy that’s located obviously in Rutland. Yeah. um one of the the proudest communities as well. I think you ask people about Rutland. It’s kind of cool where you know like a lot of people don’t even know they live in Glenmore or different areas, but Rutland has a lot of pride. Right. It is. I love the community. I mean, we’re right on Aurora Crescent. Um and yeah, the community’s been great. I’ve been I’ve owned the pharmacy now for about four years and and you know talking about stigmas. Rutland sometimes has a stigma but the people of Rutland have been so welcoming and so friendly diverse which I think is really cool. Um and and a lot of community pride. I know when we do best of Colona Rutland typically wins like you know the best community because the people that live in Rutland have a lot of pride for Rutland, right? Yeah. They had some, you know, like straight out of Rutland stuff, kind of stuff, right? So, I mean, that is their their form of pride and there’s, you know, like a lot of people really like Johnny Rutland is actually the story of Rutland, right? But, um, yeah, it’s a great community. And so, you’re you’re there kind of in the heart of downtown Rutland, I guess. Right. Fairly close. Yeah, fairly close. Just down from where the McDonald’s and the Tim Hortons is. We’re easy to miss because we’re intersection for Rutland, right? Yeah. So, we’re just a block or two in. We’re kind of hidden up in the doctor’s office on the second floor, but we’re there. And and I think because of our location, um we have so much more time for people. You know, I can I can talk to people right when they walk up usually. And there’s little or no wait time for help or for to having a prescription filled, a vaccine given. And I I love having that time to to give to people and to you know tailor essentially patient specific care to and it’s really good to get that you know when you’re getting a medication because you go to a doctor gives you a prescription you take it there and you know like sometimes the doctors are pretty quick and and they give it to you and say this will work but then you’re waiting for that explanation from the pharmacist and obviously in in a you know like a an owner operated one typically you’re going to get a little better service than if you’re going into you know a big box or something like Yeah. Well, and I have people that have worked for me that have worked in the more big box environment, too. So, they’ve seen both sides of it, and they they really love what what we can do. Not a lot of time for people in the big box, right? I mean, there’s lined up at the counter, right? So, you know, they’re kind of struggling with that, too, because the person like the 10 people standing in line are, you know, impatient as well, right? Well, you sometimes you sometimes are a number and the people working in those places, they want to do the best job they can, of course, but sometimes in that environment, you can’t help it. You you feel like it’s that lineup, right? You know what I mean? Because there’s pressure from both ways. Pressure to do a good job, pressure to serve the next customer that’s getting more and more of your time. Absolutely. So, it gets tougher and tough. That’s definitely not what people will experience when they come into to see us. Well, it’s been a great conversation. Anything else you want to add? Um, you know, just just that you’re not alone. What I already said, it’s so important for people who have mental illness to to know that they’re not alone, to know that um most people have either experienced it, do experience it, or have loved ones who have experienced it. Um, so you don’t have to isolate. Um, and and as I said, with the right support, um, you can definitely get back to the path of of having better mental health so that you feel better about yourself and your relationships. There’s only three words they need to know, right? And they talk to the right person. Just say, “I need help.” Yeah. That’s it. And then someone says, “Oh, okay. What do you need?” Right. And then and then right from there, then it it turns into a conversation as opposed to just get it out. I need help. That’s it. Exactly. Absolutely. And then once you’ve got those three words out, you’ll be surprised what will happen. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. No, thank you. And um this has been great. And uh beyond the counter. Yeah. Uh and if you’re if you’re in the Rutland area, you know, and if you want personal service, go to Rutland Medical. Thank you. Please look us up. We’d love to have anyone in. All right. And we do thank you for watching Now Media.
In a candid episode of Beyond the Counter, Rutland Medical Pharmacy owner Stephen Hopp sat down with Jim Csek to talk about a subject that affects countless Canadians yet is often left unspoken: mental health.
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